Attraction in Truth: An Interview with Martin Cloutier

Shenandoah contributor Martin Cloutier discusses the interplay between gender and romantic attraction as explored in his debut novel, as well as his unflinching commitment to truth telling in his work, and the ways he achieves it. Cloutier’s flash fiction story “Punishment, Inc.” was featured in issue 63.1. Find it here.

1. Can you tell me the story of Waiting for Something Else: When did you start working on it? What were some of your preoccupations as you were writing it?

It began when I was waiting tables and having a discussion with my straight manager after work. He said, “You know, if you were a woman, we would make a great couple.” I started to wonder about the role gender played in romantic attraction, and if it ever could be changed. All my best friends have been women, and it would’ve been far easier to fall in love with them, compared to the emotionally unavailable, communication-challenged men I kept having relationships with.

I started to think about what makes us attracted to a person. Is it something hardwired and immutable, or can it change over time? And not just gender, but other aspects of attraction as well. All of the characters in Waiting for Something Else have certain “types” to which they gravitate. For Roger, it’s tall, muscular men. For James, it’s domineering, beautiful women. For Sherry, it’s artists; for Diego, it’s masculinity; for Syd, it’s money, for Phillip it’s youth, and for Vik, it’s white men. The novel explores the question: Can we expand the “types’ we’ve habitually been attracted to?

2. This is your first published novel. How are you feeling about the launch?

In a word—exhausted. From preparing the book for publication to launching it into the world, it’s probably been the most stressful thing I’ve ever done. People keep asking if I’m excited, and really, I’m too tired to be excited—my only form of relaxation is panic. Now that writers are expected to publicize their own work, and more avenues have opened up for publicity, I spend my days shouting into the void, and then checking if the void liked, shared, or subscribed.

3. What, to you, makes this story a particularly exciting representation of your creative voice?

In writing Waiting for Something Else, humor came first. I wanted to write a novel that was funny on every page. Not just amusing, but laugh out loud funny. There aren’t many literary novels that are truly funny. Because funny requires craft, timing, and the willingness to hurt people’s feelings. You need a certain distance for humor, and literary fiction emphasizes empathy, where everything a protagonist is feeling, the reader must also feel. Where readers closely identify with a character and approve of all their actions. This doesn’t leave any room for humor. I wanted to write a novel with psychological development, that had something interesting to say about the world, where humor wasn’t an afterthought but the spine. I’m not sure I achieve all of that, but I know I wrote a funny book.

4. As an open and vocal LGBTQ+ author, do you feel a responsibility to portray certain narratives? How do you feel your unique perspective influences your work?

The one responsibility I feel I have as a writer is to tell the truth as I see it. And to tell the truth, you have to be able to see the truth. That’s often difficult if you’re trying to please people or worried about what they think. Fortunately, for me, (and more often than not, tragically for me) I’m not burdened with those compunctions. I’m certainly not interested in uplifting voices, empowering the marginalized, or writing about characters you’d want to take to brunch.

I’m interested in how people sabotage themselves. How they fuel delusion. How they, and not some external force, undermine their chances. My characters are deeply flawed, some readers have said unlikable, but I find likable characters inherently dishonest. It’s a convention writers use help readers identify with the protagonist. Most people like to think of themselves as decent and if they come to identify with an unlikable character, they might have to acknowledge the unlikable characteristics in themselves. It’s a surreptitious form of flattery. And with contemporary novels, it’s even been elevated to a dumb form of criticism. How many times have we heard, “I just didn’t find the characters likable”? Even though some of the greatest literary characters of all time have been odious dolts. I don’t want to get all Claire Messud up in here, but she said it best.

5. Is there a passage/quote that you feel is a good representative of the book as a whole, or do you have a current favorite? Can you give us a taste of something you’re especially proud of?

This comes after James, the straight protagonist of Waiting for Something Else, has had sex with Roger; specifically, he has given him a blowjob.

A trial was how he thought about it, whenever he thought about it, which was not very often, and not obsessively as to indicate it meant any more than it did—which was nothing. Roger’s penis was nothing. Just something he endured out of politeness, like kissing a mole-ridden auntie, or listening to the war stories of his old uncle. Daiyu, the sensei at his Zendo in Michigan, used to say: Accept what the universe offers. It’s not about getting what you want, but liking what you have. So the universe had offered Roger’s penis, and just like Job, he endeavored to make the best of it.

If anything, the trial helped him appreciate what he’d been putting women through all these years. A blowjob looked simple from the receiving end. But on the other side, it was quite a complicated operation. Once you got over the initial gagging, you had to deal with keeping your mouth open until you thought your jaw would drop off. You had to coordinate your breathing to your partner’s rhythm: breathing in when he was pulling out. If he paused too long in his forward thrust, you choked; if he held back too long, you didn’t know when to take another breath. The instinctual reaction was to bite down, but obviously, that would be a bad blowjob. And he wanted to be good. When the universe gave you dicks to suck, you cleared your throat and opened wide. They don’t call it a job for nothing.

6. I’m curious about some logistics: How did you come up with the title?

Don’t get me started on the title. One agent, who I’d been working with for nine months, dumped me because I wouldn’t change the title to The Brooklyntagonists. She thought Waiting for Something Else was too vague and wanted something that would invoke place. I tried to convince her that one of the novel’s central themes is how the characters, aside from being waiters, are all waiting for something unattainable. At the same time, they’re not doing anything proactive to get what they want. James is passively waiting to bump into his manic pixie dream girl at the deli. And Roger is waiting for a boyfriend who genuinely cares for him, all the while hooking up with go-go boys with glitter on their chests.

As the novel takes place in 2006, at the height of Brooklyn’s gentrification, that whole world is changing into something else. Architecture is changing. Neighborhoods are changing. The gourmet restaurant where the characters work used to be a dingy tax office. Hair braiding salons have become Pilates studios. Empty warehouses have been renovated into vegan bakeries. Seedy Times Square has turned in Disney Land. Desire itself is about wanting something else, something new, and all of the characters are exploring that.

As the story unfolds, Roger starts to suspect James is the kind of boyfriend he’s always wanted but never thought he deserved. And James, in turn, realizes that Roger values him in a way he’s never experienced—like he actually matters. The only thing standing in their way is that pesky obstacle called sexual attraction.

7. What about the cover art?

The cover art was a real crusade. After working with a couple of graphic designers, I came up with a concept I thought invoked the themes of the novel: three hands diving into a fancy desert, but I couldn’t find anyone to execute it. I was fortunate enough that one of my roommates is a friend of friend of the graphic designer, Isip Zin, who has done covers for Ursula La Guin. Normally, I could never afford her, but she took pity on me and created this absolutely stunning cover. It’s everything I wanted.

8. Have you been able to tour or do any events—or do you have any plans to travel and promote?

I love to connect with readers who share my mean-spirited bitchery, but realistically, I just don’t have the funds for a book tour – I’m an adjunct professor who lives with two roommates. Traveling to events is luxury for people with disposable income and a therapist who says, “follow your joy.” I know many writers who did it. But it never resulted in many book sales and they never recouped the money they spent on travel expenses, even with sleeping on the couches of friends and eating at Taco Bell.

I did a few events in Brooklyn and Manhattan in June, where I gave out “emotional dildos."

9. Anything special you’re working on now or next?

I’m working on a novel about a liberal dog-walker in Brooklyn who moves to Alabama and falls in love with a handsome, hedonistic, Trump supporter.